Welcome to the Youth Fusion Experts Series, a podcast where we engage with leaders and experts in the various related fields of nuclear disarmament, peace and security, and sustainable development. Through these conversations, we wish to offer you all the chance to learn and be inspired by those who are actively working towards a fairer and more peaceful future for all. For those of you who’d like to read about this interview, we’ve summed it up here on our blog, and if you’d like a listen, click here for the full podcast episode.
Michaela Higgins Sørensen, our Youth Fusion Program Officer, interviewed the very experienced and well accomplished Renata Hessmann Dalaqua, who is originally from Brazil. Renata is currently the Head of the Gender and Disarmament Programme at UNIDIR, but before joining UNIDIR, she was the Deputy Director of Projects at the Brazilian Center for International Relations (CEBRI), where she worked for six years. Renata is also the recipient of the United Nations Women Scholarship for Peace, and she has published and conducted research on international cooperation on security, disarmament, non-proliferation and arms control, and nuclear energy governance. She holds a PhD in History and Politics from the Vargas Foundation in Brazil, and a master’s degree in International Politics and Security from the University College of London, UK. Renata’s areas of expertise include gender and multilateral disarmament fora, nuclear energy policy-making and technology governance. During Youth Fusion’s interview with her, we discussed her background, what role Brazil plays in nuclear disarmament, gender and nuclear disarmament, as well as the role youth can play in the field with some expert advice!
PART 1: Who is Renata, and how did she get involved in nuclear disarmament?
Renata’s journey into the nuclear disarmament field is a unique story that began during her undergraduate program in Brazil. During this time, Renata was doing a research project, as part of her political science major, studying the historiography of Edward Palmer Thompson, who was an inspiring British activist for nuclear disarmament in the 1980’s. Through this research project, Renata examined Thompson’s nuclear disarmament activism within the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND), and fit his work into her research project. This experience sparked her interest and passion within the nuclear disarmament field, and motivated her to apply to various masters’ programs in the UK. As part of her application process, Renata outlined her ideas for potential research topics, namely on proposals for nuclear disarmament inspired by Edward Palmer Thompson’s activism.
Thereafter, Renata got into a master’s program with a scholarship, and did her master’s thesis on the campaign for a Nuclear Weapons Convention and the role of discourse in the nuclear disarmament movement. Besides her studies, Renata also did two internships with the UK charity VERTIC on arms control, as well as with the CTBTO in Vienna. When finished with her master’s degree and internships, Renata returned to Brazil, and started working on different issues within international affairs. This led her to her PhD program, which focused on nuclear technology and governance in Brazil. During this time, nuclear disarmament was always at the forefront of her mind. Therefore, after her PhD, Renata moved to Geneva and got a position at UNIDIR, where she is currently the Head of their Gender and Disarmament Programme. Currently, Renata has over 12 years of professional experience within nuclear disarmament, and is an important part of shaping the disarmament field.
PART 2: On Being from Brazil and getting into the nuclear disarmament field
When asked about her Brazilian background, in regard to her career path within the nuclear disarmament field, Renata specified that she has always looked at the global nuclear order from a Brazilian perspective. Renata further explained this by stating that, “my views and my perspectives around the global nuclear order are very much shaped by my background, as a Brazilian political scientist- as someone that was trained to see the world in a certain way. For instance, during my early studies, I could see there was a lot of emphasis in other countries on non-proliferation, and the Brazilian position was very much strengthening the disarmament aspect of the bargain of the NPT.” [RHD1] Renata further clarified that this is because the diplomatic tradition in Brazil is strong and emphasizes fairness and justice, which resonates with the debates around the NPT and the TPNW UN treaties on nuclear disarmament. Renata further identified that this made her very aware of the power imbalances that exist within the international system early on, and reflected that professional trajectories are often shaped by different security concerns that countries around the world have.
“My views and my perspectives around the global nuclear order are very much shaped by my background, as a Brazilian political scientist- as someone that was trained to see the world in a certain way. For instance, during my early studies, I could see there was a lot of emphasis in other countries on non-proliferation, and the Brazilian position was very much strengthening the disarmament aspect of the bargain of the NPT.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
Building on her account of the different security concerns countries have, Renata explained, “countries that, in the case of South Africa- it went through a disarmament process, or countries that decided not to develop nuclear weapons, they also have security concerns, and they have found ways to address those security concerns without relying on nuclear weapons. That is a concrete example that nuclear disarmament, and a world free of nuclear weapons, is possible. So, I think if you come from this perspective, for sure, we still have security concerns, but we are dealing with it in a different way. It’s a very strong example, I think.” Using Brazil as a country that said no to nuclear weapons, Renata showcased a clear example that it’s possible to address international security concerns without relying on nuclear weapons.
“Countries that, in the case of South Africa- it went through a disarmament process, or countries that decided not to develop nuclear weapons, they also have security concerns, and they have found ways to address those security concerns without relying on nuclear weapons. That is a concrete example that nuclear disarmament, and a world free of nuclear weapons, is possible. So, I think if you come from this perspective, for sure, we still have security concerns, but we are dealing with it in a different way. It’s a very strong example, I think.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
Sørensen, who is partly South African, pointed out that countries that are pro-disarmament, namely in the Global South, don’t get enough representation in various global governance decision-making processes in the disarmament space. Renata subtly agreed, but added that, “I think South Africa, Brazil, and other non-nuclear weapons countries have a strong agency, and they have been able to show that through multiple initiatives.” Providing some concrete examples, Renata explained that, “South Africa and Brazil are part of the New Agenda Coalition that has played a very important role in NPT negotiations and in the nuclear regime, more broadly. South Africa and Brazil are also part of a Nuclear-Weapon-Free-Zone (NWFZ), which also plays an important role in the nuclear disarmament architecture, and South Africa and Brazil were also part of the core group leading the negotiations of the TPNW. So, I think we have multiple examples to show the agency and the impact that countries like South Africa and Brazil can have in the international space.” Renata highlighted that South Africa and Brazil have a lot in common as they have been trying to make progress within the disarmament space through various initiatives, and should not be underestimated on the political stage when it comes to such issues.
Additionally, when thinking about Brazil, nuclear disarmament is not the first thing that comes to mind. However, Renata explained that, “there are a lot of people doing good research on nuclear disarmament in Brazil”, namely researching issues surrounding nuclear history, researching archives, oral histories, or piecing the history of the collaboration on nuclear disarmament efforts between Argentina and Brazil. The academic space, which Renata was part of in regard to nuclear disarmament issues, is very strong in Brazil. The hindrance of this is that the research is often times not written in English, but rather Brazil’s official language Portuguese, which creates some difficulty in terms of broader access.
Renata explained that think-tanks or civil Society organizations in Brazil mostly focus on urgent issues, such as urban violence, as a priority because it affects everyone’s’ daily lives in a more tangible way. By comparison, not as many organizations focus on nuclear disarmament because it is not part of their immediate reality, especially in a place with limited resources. An issue has to resonate with matters that are relevant to society at large, and nuclear disarmament isn’t a pressing issue, nor an immediate reality in the minds of a country that has a plethora of other issues to contend with, on the ground. However, Renata did state that think-tanks that cover international relations issues sometimes cover topics on nuclear disarmament. That’s how Renata managed to weave in nuclear disarmament issues in that space by grabbing the opportunities when they arose.
PART 3: On gender and nuclear disarmament
Renata has been the Head of UNIDIR’s Gender and Disarmament Programme since 2018. When asked about her motivations to apply for the role, she stated that, “what inspired me to first of all apply for this position was that, as I’ve said, I’ve been following issues related to nuclear weapons since I was an undergraduate student, and there was a point where I felt that, you know, things seem a bit stagnant. The debates that I’m covering and the issues seem to be a repetition. It would be good to find a new angle to approach this topic, and when I saw this job opening, I thought, well, there is potential there. If I start working on gender and nuclear issues, it would be a new angle for me to personally explore, but also a new agenda for multilateral affairs.” Renata also highlighted what an emerging field of research gender and nuclear disarmament is, and explained that, “since I started, it has been very much a learning process for me. I had not worked on gender issues before. I had done a training program, mainly focusing on WPS (Women, Peace and Security), and I think that gave me some background into the topic, but I was very much learning together with the disarmament community because it has been a new issue for all of us.” Since 2018, Renata and her colleagues at UNIDIR have learned a lot through their research on the connections between gender and nuclear disarmament, and have been key figures in putting gender on the agenda.
“What inspired me to first of all apply for this position was that, as I’ve said, I’ve been following issues related to nuclear weapons since I was an undergraduate student, and there was a point where I felt that, you know, things seem a bit stagnant. The debates that I’m covering and the issues seem to be a repetition. It would be good to find a new angle to approach this topic, and when I saw this job opening, I thought, well, there is potential there. If I start working on gender and nuclear issues, it would be a new angle for me to personally explore, but also a new agenda for multilateral affairs.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
Renata’s interest in gender and nuclear disarmament came from a place where she was finding the debates surrounding nuclear disarmament to be redundant, and thus the exploratory nature of the gender aspect of the field largely appealed to her. Renata stated, in reference to the budding gender and nuclear disarmament field, that, “I think that’s very interesting because then we can do a lot of projects where we don’t know what we are going to find.” Renata further explained that the exploratory nature of the gender and disarmament field has led to, and is leading to, more innovative approaches and ideas within the disarmament and security arena, and declared that, “I very much believe that the gender agenda has driven innovation in arms control and disarmament. For instance, we are seeing the establishment of gender focal points in certain conventions, and you see some individuals who are really engaged, and want to learn more, and want to make sure that they are applying a gender lens to their national positions. So, it’s a very interesting space, and a space where new things are happening all the time, so I really like that”.
“I very much believe that the gender agenda has driven innovation in arms control and disarmament. For instance, we are seeing the establishment of gender focal points in certain conventions, and you see some individuals who are really engaged, and want to learn more, and want to make sure that they are applying a gender lens to their national positions. So, it’s a very interesting space, and a space where new things are happening all the time, so I really like that”.
– Remnata Hessmann Dalaqua
When it comes to her personal experience as a woman in the disarmament field, Renata shared an anecdote from her time as a PhD student. “When I was doing my PhD research, I had to interview lots of military officers and government officials that were in charge of the nuclear files in Brazil, and most of the time they were men. A lot of the time, they were senior government officials, also older men, and I think the fact that I was coming to interview them as a young woman, and also a civilian, that also played a role in the way they saw me. And I think maybe sometimes they weren’t taking me that serious, or when we were going to do an interview, they would start from the basics assuming that I didn’t know much about the topic, even though it was my PhD”, revealed Renata. In relation to this experience, Renata reflected that, at that time, she had to have more patience. She had to take the extra time to listen to the basics during each interview- it was simply ‘what she had to do’. Renata ended up interviewing over 50 people, mostly men, and it was greatly useful for her research. However, it was not remiss to Renata that her identity; gender, age, and her not coming from a military background, all played a role in how the men treated her.
“…I think the fact that I was coming to interview them as a young woman, and also a civilian, that also played a role in the way they saw me. And I think maybe sometimes they weren’t taking me that serious, or when we were going to do an interview, they would start from the basics assuming that I didn’t know much about the topic, even though it was my PhD.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
The disarmament field is still lagging behind in terms of gender equality. UNIDIR has dedicated a lot of useful research to this, namely on gender and disarmament diplomacy. Studies repeatedly show that security forums, such as the UN’s First Committee that deals with security, are still behind the curve when it comes to who gets to participate in disarmament diplomacy. For example, Renata shared that only one out of three disarmament delegates are women, and only 20% of delegations are led by women. Therefore, Renata outlined that we see this disparity at disarmament conferences where it is mostly men who get to speak. Furthermore, Renata asserted that, “you can attend today, in 2022, a session on the conference on disarmament and not hear a single woman speak.” Thus, Renata emphasized that fact that such imbalances are still very much present.
“You can attend today, in 2022, a session on the conference on disarmament and not hear a single woman speak.” – – Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
In addition to looking at the numbers, UNIDIR also carries out focus groups with men and women disarmament diplomats to help put such numbers into context. UNIDIR asks, ‘why are the numbers so low when it comes to women in disarmament, especially lower than other areas such as human rights, for example, where women make up 50% of the delegates?’. Renata already had some answers to the questions she posed, and highlighted that, “the field of disarmament tends to reward characteristics that are mostly associated with men, as I was saying; military training, some ideas of what being tough means, and what being serious means, and these ideas are mostly linked with masculanised norms.” Other issues are connected to this, such as work life balance. For example, conferences like the NPT expect delegates to go to New York for a whole month.
As numerous studies suggest, on a global scale, family responsibilities are not equality distributed among women and men. Women, often times, carry out most of the household and childcare obligations, which is also what the diplomats echoed in their focus groups with UNIDIR. Renata pointed out that, due to an unequal division of labour at home, it can be harder for women to drop everything to attend one-month long conferences. Through their work, UNIDIR researchers are not only doing the research to identify various issues and barriers within the disarmament field, they are also trying to find ways to adapt diplomacy to family life. This would benefit both women and men in terms of finding a work life balance, and aid in more equal representation within the disarmament and security space, which is important to ensure diverse views can inform global governance and decision-making processes.
“The field of disarmament tends to reward characteristics that are mostly associated with men, as I was saying; military training, some ideas of what being tough means, and what being serious means, and these ideas are mostly linked with masculanised norms.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
When asked to explore the connections between gender and disarmament further, Renata highlighted three main areas where gender norms, disarmament, and arms control are linked. The first area, as outlined above, is participation and representation wherein the field of disarmament is lagging behind other fields of policy in terms of women’s participation. Renata did point out that we have seen an increase of women’s participation, and in the civil society space the participation is almost 50/50 and very active. However, within the official disarmament delegations, such as those of nations, there is a bigger gap in governmental posts. Participation is key as it is the very first entry point for women, and other groups, in any field.
The second area that Renata pointed to was looking at how gender norms shape how weapons are seen and used in society, as well as their impact. This has a relevance across the board. For example, when it comes to small arms and light weapons, most perpetrators of armed weapons are men, most fatal victims are also men. Women face a different burden, given that small arms and light weapons are used to commit gender-based violence. Renata also turned to the studies of survivors of nuclear radiation exposure, wherein women are more likely to develop and die from various forms of cancer than men. The impact of nuclear radiation also has a lot to do with how women’s bodies are perceived in society, which leads to how they have been, and are to this very day, stigmatized. For example, women face more social stigma after being exposed to nuclear radiation, being viewed as ‘contaminated’, and thus not suitable for marriage or having children.
The third area Renata explained was the different multilateral agendas. For example, the United Nations have a Women, Peace, and Security agenda which looks into protecting women in conflict, where their needs and considerations are included in post conflict rebuilding and delivery of services. Renata stated that connecting the dots between multilateral agendas, as well as policy coherence, can make a significant difference on the ground in the way UN and international actors deliver services on the ground. Therefore, Renata underlined that participation and representation, perception and impact, as well as examining multilateral agendas, are key in examining the gender peace and security field.
Even though UNIDIR, and experts like Renata, do evidence-based work, are highly educated and qualified people, it is still tough to convince certain people of the gender agenda. Renata elaborated on this by saying, “it’s true that people have different views about arms control and disarmament, and people have different views about the importance of gender equity, as well. So, we still have to convince a lot of people that it’s important to achieve gender equality, and it’s a difficult task convincing people about that because at the end of the day, it’s about power imbalances, and redressing power imbalances, and there are people that benefit from these power imbalances, and it’s very hard to convince them with arguments that they should work towards a world where power is shared more equally between men and women. So, it’s a tough task.” Thus, there is still a lot of work and convincing to be done.
“It’s true that people have different views about arms control and disarmament, and people have different views about the importance of gender equity, as well. So, we still have to convince a lot of people that it’s important to achieve gender equality, and it’s a difficult task convincing people about that because at the end of the day, it’s about power imbalances, and redressing power imbalances, and there are people that benefit from these power imbalances, and it’s very hard to convince them with arguments that they should work towards a world where power is shared more equally between men and women. So, it’s a tough task.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
The first message that UNIDIR puts forward is that gender does not equal women- it’s much more than that. It’s about understanding socially constructed social norms that affect women and men, non-binary, and queer people. It’s important for everyone to understand such gender norms and stereotypes because, according to Renata, they are limiting our potential, our access to resources, and our opportunities in many ways. Furthermore, Renata reminds us that men also have gender. Renata finished her point with, “it’s as if gender refers only to women, which is not true.” Therefore, it is imperative that, when dealing with gender, we remember that the broader power structures are most important, as well as the social dynamics between genders.
“It’s very much about showing the relevance of gender perspectives for everyone in society, making sure this is not perceived as a women’s issue only. For sure, women’s empowerment is a part of the conversation, but it’s not the conversation as a whole”.
– Renata Hessman Dalaqua
In Renata’s own words, “it’s very much about showing the relevance of gender perspectives for everyone in society, making sure this is not perceived as a women’s issue only. For sure, women’s empowerment is a part of the conversation, but it’s not the conversation as a whole”. Renata firmly believes that including a more diverse range of people, thus adding more perspectives, is highly beneficial, which goes hand in hand with building expertise, and creating a norm that gender knowledge and experienced is valued. In connection to viewing gender analysis as a means to examine and challenge power structures, Renata also added further nuance to the discussion by stating, “I don’t think that being a woman is enough to qualify anyone as a gender expert”. Therefore, she commented on the importance of including a gender analysis that should be integrated in curriculums and diplomatic trainings. Lastly, Renata also reminded us that, “men can also be gender experts”.
“Men can also be gender experts.”
– Renata Hessmann Dalaqua
PART 4: Youth empowerment and some words of wisdom
Being a youth who wants to get into the nuclear disarmament field is hard! I’m sure we can all relate to the scenario when we are looking through a position posting, and you just don’t meet the criteria. For example, many positions, even at entry-level, want their potential employees to have 3-5 years of experience, to speak multiple languages, have published work, be specialised in a specific area, have near perfect grades, and multiple degrees- the list goes on. When asking Renata for some advice for youths out there who want to get into the nuclear disarmament field, she emphasized some key approaches, one being; “creating your opportunities to produce content and to develop your skills as a communicator- your skills as an expert”.
“From the perspective of someone who works with research, I think it’s important that you write and publish, and I don’t think it needs to be peer reviewed articles. Now-a-days, you can find different blogs. LinkedIn offers the option to publish a text, and I think it’s good to exercise your analytical skills…”
– Renata Hessman Dalaqua
More precisely, Renata shared with us, “from the perspective of someone who works with research, I think it’s important that you write and publish, and I don’t think it needs to be peer reviewed articles. Now-a-days, you can find different blogs. LinkedIn offers the option to publish a text, and I think it’s good to exercise your analytical skills. So, if you went to a panel and thought something was interesting, then you want to write about that, or an anniversary of a convention. It doesn’t always have to be ground-breaking, but it shows you can put your thoughts on a paper, and it can lead to some collaborations. For example, some websites or organisations that publish things. You can always reach out to different people to publish, but also in budling a bit of your profile. And then, when you apply for a positing, you can list it as publication and whoever is recruiting can see what you’ve written. I would encourage people to go out there and write and try to get published. Podcasts are very good ideas, too, to communicate out there. The field is not crowded, so there is space with more and more. If you can, experiment with different types of media.” So, to take Renata’s advice, feel free to make your own contribution to the Youth Fusion Blog, Podcast – or whatever media you want to use! You can always reach out to us at Youth Fusion!
For more information on UNIDIR’s work on gender and disarmament, visit their Gender and Disarmament Hub here.
Article and interview by: Michaela Higgins Sørensen